[RDD] CART Chunk

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

We've been experimenting with CART Chunk and importing into Rivendell.
It appears that Rivendell will fail to import audio (manually or in a
dropbox) as it claims WAVE files with CART chunks are invalid. That
said, it's not the only system I've come across that does this.

Are there plans for Rivendell to support CART chunk fully (including
things like markers) or we best trying to process the files using a
bit of in-house glueware to edit then place them directly into the
Rivendell database?

Cheers,

Marc.
Program Controller & Engineer - NHR.

[Lee Baker]

That would solve my voice track marker issues if the announcer could set
the segue markers in the header of the file then rd reads that info when
the file is imported.

I know simian does this by use of its info edit tool. The segue, intro and
hook markers are all embeded in to the wave header.

Be great if rd could also read that info.

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,
We've been experimenting with CART Chunk and importing into Rivendell.
It appears that Rivendell will fail to import audio (manually or in a
dropbox) as it claims WAVE files with CART chunks are invalid. That
said, it's not the only system I've come across that does this.
Are there plans for Rivendell to support CART chunk fully (including
things like markers) or we best trying to process the files using a
bit of in-house glueware to edit then place them directly into the
Rivendell database?
Cheers,
Marc.
Program Controller & Engineer - NHR.
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Marc Steele
We've been experimenting with CART Chunk and importing into Rivendell.
It appears that Rivendell will fail to import audio (manually or in a
dropbox) as it claims WAVE files with CART chunks are invalid. That
said, it's not the only system I've come across that does this.

Interesting. Could you upload a sample of one of these and then post a link here please?

Post by Marc Steele
Are there plans for Rivendell to support CART chunk fully (including
things like markers) or we best trying to process the files using a
bit of in-house glueware to edit then place them directly into the
Rivendell database?

Rivendell has supported Cart Chunk since its very inception, so I regard any failure to process such as a bug.

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| -- Cicero |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

Post by Fred Gleason
Interesting. Could you upload a sample of one of these and then post a link here please?

Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing

Post by Fred Gleason
Rivendell has supported Cart Chunk since its very inception, so I regard any failure to process such as a bug.

Interesting. I did wonder if it was a new feature in the 2.x version,
especially with the bit about cart number from Cart Chunk in the
dropbox settings.

Regards,

Marc.
Program Controller & Engineer - NHR.

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

Just a bit of an update. I've taken a quick look at the Rivendell
source code and it seems that even if the files I tested were read in
without error, the segue markers would never have been interpreted
correctly as the system we pulled the audio from users SECs/SECe
rather than SEGs/SEGe (the playout systems I've come across in the
past seem to be split across both approaches).

I'm planning on toying with some of these WAV files to see if we can
make them play nicely with Rivendell as even after the SEC->SEG
conversion the files aren't being read in correctly.

Regards,

Marc Steele.
Program Controller & Engineer - NHR.

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,

Post by Fred Gleason
Interesting. Could you upload a sample of one of these and then post a link here please?

Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing

Post by Fred Gleason
Rivendell has supported Cart Chunk since its very inception, so I regard any failure to process such as a bug.

Interesting. I did wonder if it was a new feature in the 2.x version,
especially with the bit about cart number from Cart Chunk in the
dropbox settings.
Regards,
Marc.
Program Controller & Engineer - NHR.

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Marc Steele
Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing

This file has an error in the cart chunk -- specifically, the chunk size in the header is off by one.

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| -- Cicero |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Fred Gleason
This file has an error in the cart chunk -- specifically, the chunk size in the header is off by one.

Ok, as an experiment, I went ahead and corrected the offending chunk size (specifically, the byte at offset 0x2B4, which should be changed from '1' to '2'). After making that change, the file imports perfectly, including all of the Cart Chunk fields.

You might want to file a bug report against whatever system wrote this file (the Producer ID field in the cart chunk is "Genesys").

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| -- Cicero |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

Spotted that as well earlier today. Doh! That said, I had a few files
import nicely after toying with the chunk length fields.

Looks like I might need some comedy glueware in the way if I was to accept
files from that source.

Regards,

Marc.

Post by Marc Steele

Post by Marc Steele
Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing
This file has an error in the cart chunk -- specifically, the chunk size
in the header is off by one.
Cheers!
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
| -- Cicero |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

Just to say, Genesys is a playout system I was pulling test files from. If
you've come across Maestro or DCS, it's the same people (IIRC).

Regards,

Marc.

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,
Spotted that as well earlier today. Doh! That said, I had a few files
import nicely after toying with the chunk length fields.
Looks like I might need some comedy glueware in the way if I was to accept
files from that source.
Regards,
Marc.

Post by Marc Steele

Post by Marc Steele
Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing
This file has an error in the cart chunk -- specifically, the chunk size
in the header is off by one.
Cheers!
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer
|
| | Paravel Systems
|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul.
|
| -- Cicero
|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Andy Sayler]

Might this kind of situation to which Postel's Law applies: Be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others?

Obviously, Fred had some way to detect that the chunk size in the
header was off by one. Couldn't the Rivendell import system do the
same thing (maybe issuing a warning, but still succeeding)?

Is it a case of being easier to make Rivendell more liberal in what it
accepts than it will be to get third parties to be more conservative
in what they send?

Cheers,
Andy Sayler
WMFO Medford

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,
Just to say, Genesys is a playout system I was pulling test files from. If
you've come across Maestro or DCS, it's the same people (IIRC).
Regards,
Marc.

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,
Spotted that as well earlier today. Doh! That said, I had a few files
import nicely after toying with the chunk length fields.
Looks like I might need some comedy glueware in the way if I was to accept
files from that source.
Regards,
Marc.

Post by Fred Gleason

Post by Marc Steele
Sure. I've put a sample WAV file I know works with other systems (e.g.
Audition, Genesys, etc.) at
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1-gHHsHRsDTYjdabkJoSGt5WDA/edit?usp=sharing

This file has an error in the cart chunk -- specifically, the chunk size
in the header is off by one.
Cheers!
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer
|
| | Paravel Systems
|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A room without books is like a body without a soul.
|
| -- Cicero
|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Andy Sayler
Might this kind of situation to which Postel's Law applies: Be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others?

I've been looking into that. While there are some places in RD where we already do it, working around this particular problem would involve a significant redesign of the code that reads WAV files (the RDWaveFile class). That's a very fundamental class in RD; any problems with it can cause major breakage to cascade throughout the system. Also, all I've seen of this bug thus far is one sample where the chunk length field is one less than it ought to be; I've no idea whether that is the form in which it always manifests or if it can show up in other ways --e.g. an offset that is *two* short, or even longer than it ought to be.

This is the problem with heuristics. They have a nasty habit of proliferating and gunking up otherwise straightforward algorithms. The result all too often is a more fragile system than would otherwise be the case. I don't think we want to do that, merely for the sake of supporting what is a demonstrably broken file format.

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "No, `Eureka!' is Greek for `This bath is too hot!'" |
| -- Dr. Who |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Cowboy]

Post by Andy Sayler
Obviously, Fred had some way to detect that the chunk size in the
header was off by one. Couldn't the Rivendell import system do the
same thing (maybe issuing a warning, but still succeeding)?

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Fred did it the same way I do.
Open the file in a binary editor, and start manually counting bytes.

Could Rivendell be made to do this ?
I suspect, not easily.

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Cowboy
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Fred did it the same way I do.
Open the file in a binary editor, and start manually counting bytes.
Could Rivendell be made to do this ?
I suspect, not easily.

If I had *this* algorithm solved, I suspect I'd be living in a bigger house... :)

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| ...one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, |
| lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of |
| their C programs. |
| -- Robert Firth |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Rob Landry]

Post by Andy Sayler
Obviously, Fred had some way to detect that the chunk size in the
header was off by one. Couldn't the Rivendell import system do the
same thing (maybe issuing a warning, but still succeeding)?

I suspect there will always be error conditions that can't be detected
perfectly. For instance, one source of .wav files I work with has the
habit of including 'data' and 'DATA' parameters in various chunks, making
the detection of a 'data' chunk problematic if any of the other chunks'
declared sizes are off.


Rob

[Bob Reite]

I had no problem importing .wav files with CART Chunk using rdimport.
It even correctly has the title, artist and other fields in the
Rivendell database after the import.

Post by Marc Steele
Hello,
We've been experimenting with CART Chunk and importing into Rivendell.
It appears that Rivendell will fail to import audio (manually or in a
dropbox) as it claims WAVE files with CART chunks are invalid. That
said, it's not the only system I've come across that does this.
Are there plans for Rivendell to support CART chunk fully (including
things like markers) or we best trying to process the files using a
bit of in-house glueware to edit then place them directly into the
Rivendell database?
Cheers,
Marc.
Program Controller& Engineer - NHR.
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Rüdiger]

Sometimes i find a button left in rdaiplay. These button i can't delete
and they stay on that position until i restart rdairplay.
Don't know when it happens. Only that's in AUTO Mode.

That's not a big problem, but it can confuse the presenters.;)

Here u can see a screenshot from this.

Loading Image...

System 2.4.0 selfcompiled on Gubuntu 12.04 LTS.

[Geoff Barkman]

Is the audio missing on the button that wont disappear?
Cheers geoff

sent by geoff on his android phone

Post by Rüdiger
Sometimes i find a button left in rdaiplay. These button i can't delete
and they stay on that position until i restart rdairplay.
Don't know when it happens. Only that's in AUTO Mode.
That's not a big problem, but it can confuse the presenters.;)
Here u can see a screenshot from this.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13768221/button.png
System 2.4.0 selfcompiled on Gubuntu 12.04 LTS.
--
--
Ruediger
Radio Ostfriesland Techniksupport Automation
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Rüdiger]

No, in the latter case it was a macro. But i've seen it with audio
content, too. The audio is on the same machine. No network/NFS problem.

Post by Geoff Barkman
Is the audio missing on the button that wont disappear?
Cheers geoff
sent by geoff on his android phone
Sometimes i find a button left in rdaiplay. These button i can't delete
and they stay on that position until i restart rdairplay.
Don't know when it happens. Only that's in AUTO Mode.
That's not a big problem, but it can confuse the presenters.;)
Here u can see a screenshot from this.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13768221/button.png
System 2.4.0 selfcompiled on Gubuntu 12.04 LTS.
--
--
Ruediger
Radio Ostfriesland Techniksupport Automation
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Stan Fotinos]

I have seen this happen usually with the sleep macro in the past and
once that got stuck then everything else after it gets stuck too. I have
had to restart the player to clear them.

Stan

Post by Rüdiger
No, in the latter case it was a macro. But i've seen it with audio
content, too. The audio is on the same machine. No network/NFS problem.

Post by Geoff Barkman
Is the audio missing on the button that wont disappear?
Cheers geoff
sent by geoff on his android phone
Sometimes i find a button left in rdaiplay. These button i can't delete
and they stay on that position until i restart rdairplay.
Don't know when it happens. Only that's in AUTO Mode.
That's not a big problem, but it can confuse the presenters.;)
Here u can see a screenshot from this.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13768221/button.png
System 2.4.0 selfcompiled on Gubuntu 12.04 LTS.
--
--
Ruediger
Radio Ostfriesland Techniksupport Automation
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[al davis]

Post by Stan Fotinos
I have seen this happen usually with the sleep macro in the
past and once that got stuck then everything else after it
gets stuck too. I have had to restart the player to clear
them.

It seems to clear itself when the sleep time is up.

As I see it, the problem arises when a sleep macro is used to
stall moving on to the next event, then the next event is
started prematurely in the sense of before the sleep time is up.
The next event could be started prematurely either by clicking
"start" on something or a timed start.

[Brian McGlynn]

I ran into the same thing today with a Sleep Macro. All seems to run fine, except for the Red Square illuminated for the Sleep Macro.

I'm on Rivendell 2.4.0 on CentOS 5.9.

Brian

Post by Geoff Barkman
Is the audio missing on the button that wont disappear?
Cheers geoff
sent by geoff on his android phone
Sometimes i find a button left in rdaiplay. These button i can't delete
and they stay on that position until i restart rdairplay.
Don't know when it happens. Only that's in AUTO Mode.
That's not a big problem, but it can confuse the presenters.;)
Here u can see a screenshot from this.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13768221/button.png
System 2.4.0 selfcompiled on Gubuntu 12.04 LTS.
--
--
Ruediger
Radio Ostfriesland Techniksupport Automation
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Jay Ashworth]

----- Original Message -----

Post by Andy Sayler
Might this kind of situation to which Postel's Law applies: Be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others?

Probably, but there's a codicil, due originally to I no longer remember
whom:

"Do not be *too* liberal in what you accept, lest you encourage people
to misbehave and push the costs thereof onto you."

If there's a system, people will game it. And Postel's Law was writen
when there were effectively no Bad Actors on the Net.

Cheers,
-- jra

[Rob Landry]

Post by Jay Ashworth
----- Original Message -----

Post by Andy Sayler
Might this kind of situation to which Postel's Law applies: Be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others?

Probably, but there's a codicil, due originally to I no longer remember
"Do not be *too* liberal in what you accept, lest you encourage people
to misbehave and push the costs thereof onto you."

I am tempted to ask what would Jesus code, and if he would have his
computers turn the other cheek, as it were.


Rob

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Jay Ashworth
Probably, but there's a codicil, due originally to I no longer remember
"Do not be *too* liberal in what you accept, lest you encourage people
to misbehave and push the costs thereof onto you."
If there's a system, people will game it. And Postel's Law was writen
when there were effectively no Bad Actors on the Net.

There's some additional context to it as well: arguably, the situation Postel was attempting to address was fallout from vague or ambiguous standards. It is not uncommon with such to have two or more "compliant" implementations of the same standard that nonetheless cannot interoperate due to different interpretations of said standard by the implementers.

That's not the situation we have here. The RIFF Wav standard is very clear here, it's the sample file that is simply incorrect --i.e. demonstrably not compliant with said standard. The real problem is a bug in whatever system wrote the original file.

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| If there *is* a communications problem, I haven't heard about it! |
| -- Dr. James Coles |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Cowboy]

There's some additional context to it as well: arguably, the situation Postel was attempting to address was fallout from vague or ambiguous standards.  It is not uncommon with such to have two or more "compliant" implementations of the same standard that nonetheless cannot interoperate due to different interpretations of said standard by the implementers.

The Micro$oft "ping of death" comes immediately to mind.....

[Jay Ashworth]

----- Original Message -----

This is the problem with heuristics. They have a nasty habit of
proliferating and gunking up otherwise straightforward algorithms. The
result all too often is a more fragile system than would otherwise be
the case. I don't think we want to do that, merely for the sake of
supporting what is a demonstrably broken file format.

I believe that's the long version of "don't be too liberal", yes. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra

[Marc Steele]

To be fair, it looks like we'll be knocking together an external tool to
tweak these files for Rivendell as we also have to handle the SEC-> SEG
stuff as well. If it endsup being a generic (and robust) enough tool, we
might release it for fixing WAV files.

Regards,

Marc.

Post by Jay Ashworth
----- Original Message -----

This is the problem with heuristics. They have a nasty habit of
proliferating and gunking up otherwise straightforward algorithms. The
result all too often is a more fragile system than would otherwise be
the case. I don't think we want to do that, merely for the sake of
supporting what is a demonstrably broken file format.

I believe that's the long version of "don't be too liberal", yes. :-)
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA #natog [phone]
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
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[Fred Gleason]

To be fair, it looks like we'll be knocking together an external tool to tweak these files for Rivendell as we also have to handle the SEC-> SEG stuff as well.

Ah, now the SEC/SEG ambiguity is arguably a case where Postel's Law is relevant. It'd be simple to make Rivendell process both.

Are there ever any cases where *both* are present in the same file?

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Only those who leisurely approach that which the masses are busy about |
| can be busy about that which the masses take leisurely. |
| -- Lao Tsu |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Marc Steele]

Hello,

Techncially the standard say yes... but I've never seen it happen in
reality. The way I'd do it is look for SEGs/SEGe and fall back to
SECs/SECe if that doesn't work.

Regards,

Marc.

Post by Fred Gleason

To be fair, it looks like we'll be knocking together an external tool to tweak these files for Rivendell as we also have to handle the SEC-> SEG stuff as well.

Ah, now the SEC/SEG ambiguity is arguably a case where Postel's Law is relevant. It'd be simple to make Rivendell process both.
Are there ever any cases where *both* are present in the same file?
Cheers!
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Only those who leisurely approach that which the masses are busy about |
| can be busy about that which the masses take leisurely. |
| -- Lao Tsu |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
_______________________________________________
Rivendell-dev mailing list
http://lists.rivendellaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Marc Steele
Techncially the standard say yes... but I've never seen it happen in
reality. The way I'd do it is look for SEGs/SEGe and fall back to
SECs/SECe if that doesn't work.

Actually, in the sample I have, there are no SECs/SECe timers, but rather SEC1/SEC2 ones. The SEC1 timer contains a value that reasonably looks like the 'start of segue' position, while SEC2 contains zero. There is also an EOD timer, which in this example points to the last frame in the PCM data. Anybody know what this is?

At this point, my working algorithm is to make SegueStart=SEC1 and SegueEnd=EOD, while ignoring SEC2. I'd welcome any guidance...

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| There is only one thing worse than having your competitors trying to |
| inter-operate with your systems - and that is to have your competitors |
| *not* trying to inter-operate with your systems. |
| --Alan(UK), GrokLaw.net |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Fred Gleason]

Post by Fred Gleason
At this point, my working algorithm is to make SegueStart=SEC1 and SegueEnd=EOD, while ignoring SEC2.

Ok, I've gone ahead and committed an implementation of this to CVS-v2_branch. For good measure, I've also implemented support for the INT timer, which means that the Talk markers should also get set correctly for these files. Please test!

Cheers!


|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |
| | Paravel Systems |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's |
| supposed to do. |
| -- Robert A. Heinlein |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Jay Ashworth]

----- Original Message -----

Post by Rob Landry

Post by Jay Ashworth
"Do not be *too* liberal in what you accept, lest you encourage
people to misbehave and push the costs thereof onto you."

I am tempted to ask what would Jesus code, and if he would have his
computers turn the other cheek, as it were.

Jesus, being a practical liberal, would dub the coders who screwed up
the cartchunk data philistines, and not cut them any slack. :-)

Cheers,
-- jr 'I'm goin' to hell now, right?' a

[Jay Ashworth]

----- Original Message -----

Post by Cowboy
The Micro$oft "ping of death" comes immediately to mind.....

Naw; that wasn't spec-slip; that was a *screwup*:

http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Security/ping-of-death.html

Cheers,
-- jra